Interesting Lawyers Podcast: From Lawyer to Tech Entrepreneur- Living the Dream of Life After Law

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, and welcome to the Interesting Lawyers podcast brought to you by Lawyer Better Consulting. I’m Russ Adler, and I’m the host of the Interesting Lawyers podcast, and today we have a very special guest.
This man is not only a lawyer, but he’s a entrepreneur who’s done extremely well. And to sum it up, he’s living my dream. And he’s also an old friend of mine introducing the great Michael Kranitz.
Mike, say hello. Hello. I’ve never had the great prepended to my name, but now I’m going to copy it and use it. So full disclosure, Mike and I are fraternity brothers from the University of Florida.
We were there between I think ’78 and ’83 maybe. Mike’s a year older than me. You might have stayed longer. Yeah. And my memories are somewhat blurred because in our particular fraternity house,
there were two cohorts. There were the studiers and there were the studiers and there were the studiers and there were the studiers. there were the partiers. And Mike, to the best of my blurred recollection, you were the studyer and I was the partier. Did that sound right?
I think that’s accurate. Yeah, so I know you got a lot accomplished in in college, but you know, just looking back at everything, the one thing I know about you and I,
aside from having the same hair or lack thereof, is that we’re both like very creative people. And that’s why I really appreciate and have great respect for you.
I just wish I had hung out with you a little bit more in light of the way that things have turned out. But I couldn’t get through the cloud that was always around you. There’s a cloud. I don’t know.
Exactly. Yeah. I don’t remember that part, of course. Taking the fifth. Well, of course you didn’t because you were in the cloud. Taking the fifth on that. So, so Mike, you know, let’s go through just very brief background.
because there’s some much more exciting things to talk about, but I know you went to law school and you were always interested in technology. I shared your love for technology.
It wasn’t much back when we got out of college, but can you tell us about how this chance encounter in a comp USA store, for those who may remember it, basically launched your career as a tech entrepreneur?
entrepreneur. I will recount that story. So I practiced for 11 years in three states,
actually, because apparently I’m fond of taking bar exams. Texas, Illinois, and Ohio. And in the late 90s in Ohio,
I don’t know why. I really don’t know why, but I started writing a book on auto -leasing ’cause I couldn’t find one. And so I had gotten down to the final version of the book and at that point in time,
I think we’re in ’95, ’96, software would come out in a CD or in a floppy disk which wasn’t floppy, it was a three and a half inch rigid disk.

Yep. – And it might be in the back of a book, right? – I remember it well. – A piece of software. So I thought to myself, gee, it would be really nice. This is a mathematically oriented thing,
this auto leasing thing to have a program. So I went to CompUSA and you gotta look that up on the way back machine ’cause those are gone and giant computer superstore for the uninitiated.
uninitiated. And in the book section, I started looking at books on visual basic and quickly discern that I would not be able to write this code. So I kind of hung back and I waited and this guy walks in and he picks up a VB book and I just struck up a conversation with him.
And he became my developer for what? what was Lease Wizard, the companion piece of software that went with the book and that got reviewed by Motor Trend and Automobile Magazine.
And then that was kind of, that was the catapult that allowed me to jettison from the gravitational pull of the law and the salary that comes with it and venture off into tech with all kinds of risk and,
you know, reward. – So you were doing bankruptcy or creditors’ rights work during the years that you practiced? – That’s right. – How long you practiced for? – 11 years. – Interesting.
So you like being a tech billionaire better, right? – I am not a tech billionaire. – How about are you a tech bro? They have these tech bros. Are you one of them? – I’m too old to be a tech bro and not good enough to be a tech billionaire.
But there’s a lot of room in between to be a lot of things. I see that. But you’ve built and sold nearly a dozen software companies just to be clear. I have sold seven software companies.
I built probably ten. There were some ones that just didn’t make it in there. But, you know, it’s. a bottom -up experience for me because all of the areas in which I entered to play in software were ones that I basically started with a prototype and grew it into a business that was capable of being sold.
So it turned into your exit plan. Was that part of your exit plan to begin with? I know that lawyers generally have exit plans, which is either I’m going to retire, drop dead,
or go do something else, and everyone agrees that a law degree is great to have in business. At least that’s what some people say. Thoughts? I had my exit plan third year of law school because I figured out that I wasn’t going to like it.
But I really inertia, and I didn’t actually realize this when I was practicing. Every three years. years, I would get the urge to change cities because I thought,
“Well, I’d like it better in this practice or I want a bigger law firm,” or whatever it was that I was telling myself, finally kicked in when I was in Ohio as a partner at a law firm called Benish Freedlander,
and I was running the bankruptcy department there. I just found myself tired of of the routine. And all lawyers know the headbutting that goes on and some of the routine filings that go on in bankruptcy.
I enjoyed briefwriting, I enjoyed appellate work, but it just wasn’t enough. And even in law school, I had three businesses going at Vanderbilt.
And I finally acknowledged to myself that it’s okay to do something different from what mothers said I should do, and that was be a lawyer. So that’s,
you know, I was at the right place at the right time to exit off into technology, and then that’s when the journey began. Right. But being a former tech entrepreneur myself,
and you and I have discussed that in the past, mothers said I should do, and that’s when I finally acknowledged to myself that it’s okay to do something different from what mothers said I should do, and that’s when I finally difference between you and me is you’ve had these seven exits, which for those unfamiliar, that’s when you get the big check. So is it public information?
Can you tell us how much these exits were for? Because if they say everyone has a dream, you’re just living it. I don’t usually like to talk numbers.
Let’s say it’s plenty. and I work because I enjoy working. That’s the cumulative effect of those exits.
When we talked earlier, I gave you a number, but I’ve left one out, the Microsoft one. It’s under $40 million.
Let’s just put it that way. And again, I think it’s important. My life view is that I have something that real billionaires will never have,
and that’s enough. And so I’m fine with it. And in fact, when I speak to students a lot at University of Florida or ones that I’m mentoring, I tell them that you shouldn’t set your sights on a billion.
If it happens, it’s great. Good money will follow good products, but that there are plenty of opportunities and life balance in niches and technological ventures that don’t result in 20,
30, 40, 100 million dollar paydays, and they don’t have to, from my perspective. I am perfectly fine having gone on the journey that I’ve gone on. I wouldn’t write it any differently.
Could I have made more money? Could I have done better? Could I have created bigger companies? Sure, absolutely. Any critical I would look at them and say, well, you could have done this,
you could have done this, you could have scaled this or whatever. But I’m happy with the way I did it. And I’ve done it in different fields so that periodically I’ll look back on it.
and go, how the fuck did I get here? How do you go from radio -controlled flying events to classified ads or to automobiles?
We’ll get to your fleet of aircraft in a minute. But to sum it up, so what you’re telling us is that you may be wealthy, but you’re not greedy. There’s actually someone on this planet who meets that description and that’s you.
What’s that? that’s some enough. There’s plenty of people. There’s plenty of people. And, and I, there’s a certain amount of greed that has to go into what you do. I mean,
the, you know, you hear this all the time that you have to be really passionate about what you’re doing. And, and I think that passion follows action.
I think when you make a decision to go into a venture, what should rule is, what is your product like? What are people going to say about it? Are you making an impact?
Are you satisfied? What is your reputation going to carry from that event? The money almost always follows if you don’t screw it up. And so I look at,
I go into areas where I see an opportunity, and where I see demand for a better product. And that’s why it’s been kind of a crisscross journey through different industries.
And frankly, you get really good at building something from the ground up and being nobody to actually having people say, hey, we really like your product.
This saved our bacon or whatever they say. That’s the real satisfaction. So. For me anyway, I get just as jazzed now about making a sale.
Maybe it’s a $4 ,000 a year license, as I did back when I sold a $25 CD of my leasing software because I was just starting out.
It’s something and somebody wants it. it, and that’s what drives me. That doesn’t drive everybody, but that’s what drives me. I know that the most successful entrepreneurs are the people who are really passionate about it,
and you certainly fit that description as well. That’s why you’re a tech bro. I like it, and I remember, so the first gig I got,
the way I was able to exit ramp, I of a law firm and into an actual company, if you can imagine the conversation, the company was a company in Columbus,
Ohio that was doing the packaging for the auto leasing software that I had created. Remember, software used to come in a box. Right. I remember. And they did the CD duplication,
right? So we were at a party and I said, Hey, have you heard about this WWW thing, this worldwide web thing?” Literally 1995 or six and I remember the president said,
“No.” I said, “Well, you’re going to have to get into it because it’s going to be big. You need a digital business division.” And she said, “Well, who’s going to run it?” And I said, “I will.” And she said, “What, you’re going to be in the House Council?” And I had to,
and that wasn’t my first meeting. And she said, “Well, you’re going to be in the House Council.” And I said, “Well, you’re going to be in the House Council.” And she said, “Well, you’re going to be in the House Council.” had a bunch of meetings with different companies before and always the same question was are you going to be in House counsel because 11 years a lawyer and you kind of get branded that way and so
to be able to make that leap out and all I knew was what I had done so far I’m pretty sure I might not have been qualified to have that role.
role, but they gave me that role and a two year deal and said, fine, here’s a desk and here’s a computer, go make it happen. And…

The rest is history. – Well, not really. The interesting part of that story is three months in, four months in, five, six, seven, the owner’s side of the desk. would come in, he was in charge of sales, and he’d say, “Show me the money,” because the movie was out then. Where’s the money?
We had made maybe $1 ,500 in August. I said, “This takes time,” because I was building an automobile information network that would later power Motor Trend, Automobile, Excite, CBS, a lot of websites, but it wasn’t developed yet. I was still creating it and he kept saying, “Where’s the money? Where’s the money?” And I said,”You asked me to come in and build a business. I’m on a two -year deal. I’m going as fast as I can.” Well, he came in one too many times in October.
We had done $3 ,000 the month before and in October I thought, “Oh, maybe we’ll get five or six.” six. How much money are you going to bring in?” I said,
“I don’t know, four or five,” and he’s like, “That’s not enough.” I went home and I remember waking up at two in the morning, October 17th. I remember it two days before my birthday and I said to my wife,
Abby, “I am going to walk back in there and pay them back all the salary they gave me from January to October me from January to October 18th.” I’m taking the business with me.
And I’m sure they’ll take the deal because they have no idea what it is, and they have no confidence in it. I went in, I make the deal, I take the business back myself. I go in my basement. The next month,
we make 10. The next month, 15. The next month, 20. And that is the company that grew into the business that Microsoft ultimately built.
bought. And because of their lack of patience and vision, and because of my finally getting over the risk hump, because I had been risk averse until then,
what’s less risk averse than law? I mean, your lawyer didn’t get paid, right? Everything else, I had never, I had to sign a promissory note for 100 grand to this company saying I will pay you back all my salary.
I had never, executed a promissory note as a debtor. It was always, maybe as a lawyer, I looked at one, but I never signed one before. So two kids, mortgage,
wife, and I go into Hock for $100 ,000 on a bet that I can make this business go. And that’s the piece of entrepreneurship. When you wanna make the dive,
you’re gonna make the leap. Now, if you have money, money to back you, that’s great. I didn’t. I was 36 years old. So you bootstrapped it.
And I bootstrapped it. Right. Building the business from the revenues from the business organically, right? Yeah. Now, before Microsoft came along,
another company out in Colorado said, we want what you’ve got. And I was able to see that. that first and then go out to Colorado, which is where I am now,
and run that company and then piggyback the rights to my book and software in that sale so that when Microsoft came along, they bought the rights to my book and software.
And then when the whole thing exploded, when .com bomb came in 2001, I got my my rights back and I was able to resell. It’s incredible. So always sell business voice.
Yeah. A couple quick questions about your involvement in these software companies. Are you an actual coder? Are you a visionary? Are you more like Steve Jobs or more like Steve Wozniak in that sense?
Actually a little of both. I taught myself how to write in a language called cold fusion. fusion way back when, late ’90s.
And I developed that to the point where I could prototype the ideas that I wanted to put, make applications online. I could make them function.
And that saved a lot of money. It didn’t save a lot of time because I was putting in 18 to 20 hour days. I mean,
for years, writing the software, designing the user flows and all the screens, doing the marketing, and then selling it upstream to whoever the customers were for that particular platform.
Can you share with our listeners, and those watching us on YouTube, of course, some of the technologies that you actually created that the general public used? to this day on different platforms,
different apps? The general public doesn’t use our software. The most recent example is EventSquid .Events .Events is the corporate site,
eventsquid .com is the operating site. But what EventSquid is is the end result of an event management platform I originally developed for the radio control.
control aviation hobby, which I’ve been part of since I was a child. – Right, now may I break in and give a little backdrop to this? – Okay, so I understand that, you know, being a wealthy tech entrepreneur like you are,
you have a fleet of aircraft, which include fighter jets, helicopters and all of that. But strangely, you’ve never ridden in any of these, yet you own them all. Can you please explain to us what we’re talking about here?
Well, I know I’m a short guy, but I still can’t fit into the radio control helicopters that I own. So that’s why I haven’t flown in them, Russell. See, that weed still has an effect.
Dude, maybe I could. But I know it’s been a hobby of mine that’s gotten more and more expensive as I’ve gotten older.
And these are nine, nine and a half foot long jet powered radio control helicopters that are dangerous and you have to be certified to fly them.
And it’s a skill that I enjoy developing. I enjoy repairing them. Occasionally I’ll build them, but that’s just been a hobby. And what I’ve seen in the hobby,
hobby throughout the years is that it’s a small, relatively small audience, and last year in that niche, you wouldn’t have used the original site that I had developed that turned into the corporate event registration site that it is now.
But that journey is an interesting example of how what started as a passion project, and when I say a passion. project, I don’t mean I mean,
I wanted to solve a problem that was affecting me. I don’t know if you call that passion or if you call that irritation. But whatever it was, that platform started for creating events for the radio control community.
Then somebody saw it who does archery and said, “Can you make one for archery?” Sure. Bodybuilding? sure, golf, yep, fitness, yep. Sport shooting, yes. Pagens,
yes. And so we had a suite of eight or nine vertical event planning platforms. And then we get approached by Comcast Business and they say,
“Can you do this for the corporate realm?” In 2015. So from 2015 till today, that’s where we’ve been operating. And now the software serves the Air Force,
Army National Guard, universities, non -profits, churches, synagogues, the scientific community, whatever. But the point there, Russell,
is you don’t see that at the beginning. I didn’t say I really have a passion to serve the corporate event community. What you see. see is right in front of you and then you just do it well and yeah you have to be open to other opportunities like when a client comes along and says can you do archery and then you say yes and then you get USA archery.
You don’t see that coming. You almost you rarely see what eventually comes coming ahead. of time unless you’re super pression like Steve Jobs,
right? At least I didn’t see it coming, but the ability to pivot, deal with the uncertainty, deal with the risk and go with the flow is to me what leads to these exits and what leads to other opportunities.

• Incredible. So aside from the exits, your revenues come from licensing of the software to… different businesses, agencies. I understand it’s all B2B.
  You don’t deal with the general public. I got that part. But it sounds like you’re in a bunch of different niches, and as they say, the riches are in the niches. Agreed? Agreed. Well,
  I think so. That’s just always been where I operate. I’ll give you another example that’s really cool. I’ll give you another example. Back in 2000.
  2001, I co -found a community for radio control hobbyists. What else? And I built a classified ad platform for that community site that would allow people to buy and sell through offer and acceptance so that this is where the law comes in.
  eBay was doing bidding, and I kind of wasn’t in favor of bidding. There were a number of things I didn’t like about it. I built an offer and acceptance model, and I built some other things into it that eBay actually approached my company and said,
  “Hey, can we license that?” And you know how when you go to sell an Apple iPhone on eBay and you click iPhone and it shows you all the models and then it Pre -populates all the features.
  Yep. Add that before eBay. They came to us to license that technology So I know you got to buy the company and they said no so where I was going with that is We we build out this classified ad platform three now it was was six years later.
  I don’t know how it happened. I get a meeting with media news group here in Denver that own the Denver Post and dozens and dozens of other papers and Hearst,
  which owns magazines and newspapers, and they were looking for a classified ad platform, and I had put out a white paper on how, if you communitize classifieds,
  you can be much more efficient than Craig’s List and some of these other places that were eBay and whatnot. They’re the ones who end up buying RC Universe.
  Now, I ask you, in what universe does Hearst and Media News buy a community of radio control hobbyists? Now, it was throwing off money, but not enough to warrant the purchase price what they bought.
  was the idea and the technology that underpinned what we were doing. And that is community -based classified. So that turned into a company called Kango,
  which I exited and my current COO is running my current company, ran that for nine years, but that’s a completely different business.
  It’s syndicated new. classified ads, but it’s, I mean, if that’s not a shining example of turning around and going, “Wait, didn’t see that coming.” I don’t know what is,
  and no, I didn’t put that little gesture up there, it just happened. My brilliant producer, Christian, did that. I’ve got to give credit where credit is due. And I like that, Christian. Oh, I’m not giving him credit. Keep up the effects. Anything you can do to keep our listeners awake.
  Well, if you try to keep you awake. he would do something like this. Or just get a new host. There you go. So how many licensing deals do you have at any given time licensing your technology to other companies where you’re kind of behind the scenes,
  but you’re also making it happen for them? So understand that all of these ventures kind of came in serial. So all of these other companies are sold off,
  gone, out of my control, many not even running anymore because stuff changes. Timing and luck are a big part of success in entrepreneurism.
  So don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. It’s the old opportunity meets preparedness and luck is as big a factor in success as anything else.
  So what we… license now, the EventSquid platform we sold in September to a company called HotelPlaner .com and they do hotel bookings,
  right? And they power a lot of the popular engines that your clients would know. So they wanted to get into the registration space, they purchased us and now I’m working with,
  you know, as an employee of HotelPlaner. Planner during a transition period after the sale. And we have a couple of hundred licenses,
  two companies that are state, local, and federal governments, nonprofits, educational institutions, and so forth. And that’s our sweet spot.
  So you can see it’s not a massive customer base. it’s a quantifiable easily managed B2B business base that’s reliable,
  that renews and generates recurring revenue. So that’s that business model. Sounds a little bit like a law firm. So in retrospect, how does what you’re doing now compared to what you did as a lawyer?
  You know what’s interesting? I love reading reading opinions, like today’s opinion from the DC Circuit. I still have a keen interest in the law,
  the application of the law, and things that would go on at an appellate level, because I always had a fondness for that. And you’re referring to today’s ruling that former President Trump does not have blanket immunity?
  immunity. That one? I read it to be that no president has blanket immunity, but you invoke the name that shall not be mentioned on this podcast. I’m not stirring up confirmation.
  No, that’s okay. Yeah. I’m neutral on these things. Everyone has their right to their political views. Legally speaking, Russell, that’s a constitutional provision that that opinion was was so well written.
  It’s the bedrock cornerstone foundation, whatever you want to call it of the democracy is that one branch cannot have absolute authority, otherwise we’d have a king.
  So I read that to be a decision that needed to be made for now and future generations. But what I’m saying is for as much as I grouse about the practice of law,
  I’d love to be a part of it. love the area of law and the intellectual challenge. And so I don’t yearn to go back and do the practice,
  but I still take a great interest in it. And let me be said, I would go back and do it the same. I would go to law school and I would practice law because that has been one of the most valuable assets that I’ve taken through business.
  The ability to look at a contract forecast difficulties, anticipate disputes, right, whether it’s between corporate partners, owners,
  board issues, contracts, general negotiations, it’s all applicable. And to me, it gives me a leg up. Mike, they say that success is getting what you want,
  but happiness, excuse me, is wanting what you get. Have you heard that one before? No, I’m processing that right now. Okay. Because my question is, you know,
  you certainly found success, but have you also found happiness? More than success. Good. I’m sure you know others similarly situated who are not so happy despite all of the material wealth that they’ve accumulated.
  You know what? To me, it’s the ability to communicate. Can you communicate with your business partner, with your clients, with your significant other? Can you communicate? Can you take feedback?
  Can you accept that you’re wrong? It’s just interpersonal skills and underpinning all of it critical thinking. Can you think on your feet? Can you recognize bullshit when you see it and avoid it?
  it. So all of those things to me, although critical thinking sometimes contributes to unhappiness when you live in an environment where so many people don’t critically think, but I didn’t say that.
  Well, in other words, if you’re an over -thinker, which I think – No, if you’re an under -thinker. Well, I think it’s really hard. It’s contextual. Sometimes, you know, we skew one way and sometimes the other.
  But my point is that, you know, you’re one of those success stories. stories. Yeah, the timing was right, everything kind of broke the right way, looking back in hindsight and here you are and you’ve achieved the goal that everyone wants,
  both success and happiness. And so with that, what is your advice to all those lawyers out there who are either unhappy with what they’re doing or they’ve reached the point of success and assets that that they,
  you know, they strided for their whole career, and now it’s time to go do something else. What is your advice to those people looking for some sort of inspirational quote here?
  You know what? I have this conversation with a lot of my friends that are still in the law, and ones that are the most successful often have the most difficult time leaving it.
  And I ask you how much is enough? How much is enough? You don’t have your whole life to do things that are gratifying,
  that may not generate as much wealth as you generate as a lawyer. And you have to really take stock of that. And the older we get, and I say royal,
  we hear Russell because we’re both old AF north of 60. Yes. Thanks for bringing that up. Okay. The more you come closer to, you know, the end of your turn on the planet.
  And for me, who doesn’t subscribe to any other life than the one that has been given to me right now, I feel pretty lucky every day.
  And so what I decide to do from this point is really not about, “Hey, how do I make money because I need to support my family?” I’ve done that and that’s why I said it depends who you’re talking to.
  If you’re 36 and you’re leaving the law, you have a different equation to process than I do. I’m going to be taking on an event, for example, in 2025 that I don’t have to take on.
  I’ll probably lose money on it. When people say, “Why are you doing it?” I’d say, “Be because I can, because it’s fun, because I want to. And that is how I’ve gotten into every business that I’ve gotten into,
  because I can, because I want to. And that attitude to me has brought me the most success and happiness. And so I would say to somebody, if you’re looking to leave the law,
  grow accustomed to the law. uncertainty. Be okay with uncertainty, because it’s the uncertainty that will open up the funnel of opportunities that you’ll consider that you might have rejected if you were holding on to,
  well, it has to meet this criteria, this criteria, and this criteria. Wing it, do something, and go out of your comfort zone, learn something, learn a new skill.
  I just did a complete transition from law to technology and I didn’t have any training. I wasn’t a computer science major. I was barely an economics major. And so the reinvention is a theme throughout every business that I’ve done and throughout my life in terms of,
  hey, this is a new skill I have to acquire. I’m willing to invest the time because I’m going to enjoy becoming adept at whatever it is.” So there’s no universal thing in my mind.
  It’s just taking stock of what you want for the rest of your turn on the planet and figuring out whether what you do choose will make that an enjoyable journey.
  Yeah, they say we may not be here for a long time. time, but we are here for a good time. And I agree about maximizing that time.
• And that goes back to your fraternity days, Russell. I mean, see, you’ve been living that dream from the beginning, the good time. – Well, some things have long -term effects and keep you happy for the rest of your life.
  And I am a happy person. Maybe that’s one of the reasons why, but I won’t go deeper into that right now. You don’t need to. Yeah. I’ll have to charge people to listen to those really deep podcasts.
  But it’s really fascinating to me. Any words of advice to guys in our age category, you know, 60s, who are looking to do something else,
  they too can reinvent themselves. I know all about that one, but it’s different. What’s your take on that? You know anyone who’s done that? that? I mean, that’s kind of what I was saying before.
  I would say that AI is coming. It’s massively disruptive. It will be massively disruptive in the software world, in the tech world. It will change how platforms work.
  It’ll change how companies operate. I would say, if you’re in our age bracket, bracket, now it depends on what your income requirements are. If you need to make money, again,
  your calculus is going to be completely different. I still like generating income. I like to. I feel like a loser if I’m not working. All right,
  that’s my problem. I can’t retire. I’m not going to retire. I have more ventures ahead of me. Some are already in process. and ones that I haven’t even thought of,
  I’m sure, will come about. But I don’t have a particular income goal from those, and if you can untether yourself from those constraints,
  it’ll open up your catalog of what you can do when you decide to leave the practice. But by God, don’t sit at that time. desk,
  for another 10 years and let your hair turn gray and associates wander back and forth and do the same thing. There’s just too much other stuff to do. Even if what you do is adjacent to the law,
  I would say do something else, mediate, arbitrate, be of counsel, but do something else, bring your talents to a company. You can,
  can go in -house. There are a lot of avenues that you can pursue. And it’s, again, it’s based on what your constraints are,
  but then it’s based on your willingness to take on things that are uncertain to you and different. Fantastic. Words of wisdom. From tech,
  entrepreneur, certainly certainly a successful one, even if you don’t publicly admit that you’re a billionaire, I still think you are. But Mike Kravitz living, Michael Cranitz.
  You’re not the first person to say that. Well, there was Michael Cranitz and we also had Bruce Kravitz, maybe the rest in peace. And then there’s Gladys Kravitz. Right. There’s a lot of people,
  I’m still a little bit confused by you, but I agree. appreciate your coming on and sharing your story, and I find you not only very creative,
  but very inspirational. And I mean that to me personally, and maybe soon I will be able to use AI to generate any guests that I want and have perfect podcast episodes.
  But let’s keep that between us. Maybe we can. make some money together developing that sort of platform. – That’s a double -edged sword, Russell, because your producer could regenerate you as an AI and simply boot you out of the whole process.
• I am an AI generated image. I have news for you. Russell is out playing golf right now. – Exactly. – But it’s been great speaking to you. Thank you so much for appearing, and I hope to come out to Denver and hang out with you.
  and to have you on future podcasts and maybe we can make a couple of billion together. We’ll discuss that probably. That sounds like a plan to me. Thanks so much. That’s a wrap for Michael Cranitz and that concludes this episode of the Interesting Lawyers podcast brought to you by Lawyer Better Consulting.
  For more information, please check out lawyerbetter .com. This is Russ Adler and thank you very much and we’ll see you next time.