Interesting Lawyers Podcast: Colorful Criminal Lawyer Eric Schwartzreich on Winning With Wardrobe and Showmanship

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome back to the Interesting Lawyers podcast. I’m your host Russell Adler of Lawyer Better Consulting. On today’s episode, we have a very special guest,
a very colorful guy in more ways than one. I give you Eric Schwartzreich. Eric, thank you so much for joining us. Russ, I’m going to cut you off there. Thank you very much for having me here.
I’ve known you now for 30 years, full disclosure. I can’t believe it. I’m peacocking today, but I’m not just peacocking. today. I’m peacocking every day like this. I’m going to get to that in a moment. I was going to say you’re quite the peacock.
And just so we’re on the same page, and I know that you’re a man of many words, peacock is defined by urban dictionary, a true authoritative source, as normally an English gentleman dresses smartly and to an untrained eye has the look of a preppy.
They have exceptional etiquette and are from wealthy backgrounds. backgrounds. Peacocks have class. So without getting into the background part of it, this is something that I’ve always admired about you because you use fashion to differentiate yourself.
And it’s obvious that you enjoy it. It’s not something that you’re just, you know, doing for effect, I don’t think. You just like vivid colors, right? I love vivid colors and I love clothes. I grew up,
I went to a boarding school. in Maine, so if I were getting my background with you, it’s an interesting background, but I went to a boarding school in Maine, they would have a dress up and wear suits every single day, so it didn’t matter if you were not going to class,
but for study hours between four and six in New England at this boarding school, we had a dress up. Now, certainly they didn’t have an orange jacket for me to wear. – You would have been thrown out for that, I’m sure. – Probably would have been thrown out,
but I always liked dressing up because of it. It’s just something that was really, brought up with. So I was thinking to myself, “Self, why does Eric dress like that? How does it benefit him as a lawyer?” I came up with a couple of things and I’m just going to run them by you and you can tell me if they’re true or not.
Number one, it attracts inmates as clients. So for those who aren’t aware, criminal hearings are held live and in person. The civil ones are mostly on Zoom these days,
but the criminal ones are live because the So for those who aren’t aware, criminal hearings are held live and in person. to be there. Oftentimes the defendant’s in custody, so when they bring in the inmates over from the jail who are in custody, they seat them in the jury box, right?

• They do. – And there you are, like a peacock, strolling into the courtroom, truly the center of attention, especially with that jacket, which is blinding me. I think I left my sunglasses in the car. Please turn off that jacket,
  could you? No, but anyway, I’m sure the inmates, it catches their eye as well, and it’s a true story. that on, you know, certain occasions sometimes you’re flagged over by an inmate who needs to hire some high -powered guy like you?
  The problem with the orange is that they’re wearing orange, so when I wear the orange, orange is the new black, orange is the new orange, so we wear the orange together, so I can relate to them. Sometimes, yes, they do like my clothes,
  and sometimes I’m a little bit too much for some, but here’s what I believe, I do you, or I do me, you do you, be yourself, that’s what’s in it. Howard Finkelstein great attorney was the public defender for many years help me Howard on channel 7 you know I grew up like watching a lot of lawyers learning how to like become a lawyer like who I wanted to emulate and he always said you got to be yourself I can’t be
  him he can’t be me and this is who I am I am the man in orange Johnny Black was Johnny Cash was the man in black I’m the man in orange today well you don’t just wear orange do you no I don’t but I like to stand out I was gonna bring up that this is our 11th episode,
  but it’s our first one with a live studio audience Thank you one person Eric might you know anyone in the audience did you hear that admiration?
  I mean, it’s just it’s overwhelming. It’s amazing. That is one of my beautiful looks like her mother. Thank goodness Thank God daughter Skyler sky rose sky pie and she’s in law school at Novi University was on my mock trial team,
  I also teach in American Heritage and very proud of her. I forced her to come here today and get out of law school. She had no choice, so she is here under protest. Well, you and your wife are both lawyers, very high -profile people and very smart people,
  and you do have beautiful children, so it’s kind of obvious it’s in their genes. When I saw the announcement about Skyler in law school, I said, “Great genes, you know, they look great.” like Mila,
  thank God for that. I’m really punched above my weight class by marrying Mila and Mila’s a phenomenal attorney, very well respected. – So back, I have one more reason I’ve come up with about why you are a peacock and why you dress in these wonderful colors that I happen to personally love.
  Judges and juries like it, true or not true? – It depends, Howard Ziedwig, I know you knew Howard Ziedwig was a great judge, phenomenal criminal defense attorney. One of the best. So when I wanted to hone in on my craft,
  I would go to the courthouse and I would watch guys like Fred Haddad. You had Freddie on your show. Guys like Bruce Zimmett. Guys like Dave Bogan shoots. Guys like Kelly Moldoff. I would go into the courtrooms and I would watch them.
  And one time I was in a trial as a young lawyer and I was wearing a very flashy watch. And Howard Ziedwig came up to me and said, “You know, you can’t wear that in front of a jury. You have to.” be you want to be yourself,
  but you want to be every man I mean jurors might resent that so sometimes the flashiness works I don’t start off this way I start up being myself But when I feel more comfortable then I’ll start bringing out the clothes and they like it because you know what jurors want They want to show trial work is showmanship.
  Let me entertain you I might blind them with some of these clothes But they want to show you know that Russell because I had the opportunity to know you when you were practicing law What and I don’t just say this because you’re sitting next to me You’re having me on your show,
  but you were a phenomenal trial attorney and you know what it’s about you coach I think other attorneys and and how to be a trial attorney So you’ve got the skills you’ve got the goods and you are one of the best one of the finest I’ve actually seen in the courtroom.
  Thank you Eric, but back to you. I don’t like talking about me I’m actually an introvert, but that’s part of maybe while I try and come out of my shell I like the color within the lines are like Johnny K Cash. Like they walk the line,
  don’t cross it. But I’m an introvert and sometimes I feel more comfortable when I get out of my comfort zone. And perhaps maybe that’s why I like to peacock. The reality is that you’re actually a well -known commentator on television.
  What stations have you commentated on lately? Just drop a few plugs. I don’t know how well known. But I do a lot on Fox America’s News Channel, CNN, and a lot more. News, and all the local affiliates.
  I’ve been very blessed and fortunate to be asked to comment a lot on cases, talk about my own cases, and something I really enjoy doing because I’m a frustrated actor. I get my fix in the courtroom, writing and directing,
  and get my fix going on TV. I can relate to that in a big way, and we’ve both tried about 200 trials. I did on the civil side, you have on the criminal side, they’re very different,
  but it’s pretty obvious that you’re another one. one of these lawyers who’s not only passionate about what you do but you got that personality you have the personal magnetism I noticed that with Fred Haddad I got a lot of feedback about Fred and pretty much and Dan Santanello as well great personality turns on the personality he’s really himself in front of a jury it’s easier said than done but obviously there’s
  something about you that juries like or maybe they just want to get the hell away from you in your orange jacket so they do the easy thing and find the guy not guilty. They probably do want to get away from me but you know what the truth is you want to really you want to connect with them and to me when I say I’m an introvert I think I’m a good listener you really want to be a listener I don’t like to preach
  I don’t like to talk at jurors I like to talk to them I like to be myself I like to be honest you know most people they don’t like lawyers they say about where used car salesmen depending upon what the charge is when you’re a representing someone on a sex offense,
  I mean, not only do they think your client is guilty, there’s no presumption of innocence when a jury comes and they’re looking at you like you’re guilty, so I like to just be myself, be honest, and to walk in someone’s shoes,
  I think to be an effective trial lawyer, you have to, it’s not that you have to agree with someone’s position, but you have to understand them, and you have to understand what makes people tick, and be able to relate with them,
  and I think that’s, that is one of the most important skills as a trial attorney is understanding people. >> Yep, and I know one of the issues that you’ve really become a specialist at and well known. In fact, you were the first lawyer to argue this to the Florida Supreme Court is the standard ground law.
  The law in Florida that was passed that’s somewhat controversial that basically says, not only is a person’s home their castle, so if someone walks in using a intruder, you can shoot them too.

If you either stand your ground law, as I understand it, is your ground is anywhere you are. So if right now, you feel threatened by me– and thank God we’re on video, so we know the truth– but if you do feel threatened,
you can pull out a gun that you no longer even need a carrying permit for in Florida, and you can shoot me dead. And say, I felt threatened, I felt scared, and I stood my ground.
Well, how did I do with that? You did very well. You know, my clients don’t even care about video anymore. Welcome to the Sunshine State where you can shoot first and ask questions later. You know, stand your ground.
I’m a big music guy. I love concerts. I’m going to stand my ground. I won’t back down. I can’t sing for crap, but it just always makes me think of that. I was very fortunate to be able to use the stand your ground law for law enforcement officers.
We went up to the Florida Supreme Court on the word “person” because it was a police officer in Broward County that was charged with the first shooting of someone while on duty in 30 years.
He got charged with manslaughter and filed stand your ground because there was a person, this young man marching down Dixie Highway with a rifle, an air rifle, and it looked very real. And he was given command, “Stop!
Stop! Stop !” Dropped the weapon. He didn’t. He walked into a community, marched into a community with this rifle, turned towards these people. He was charged with manslaughter and filed stand your ground because there was a person area where there were children, and my officer,
after giving command, shot him, and the young man died. And the deputy got charged with murder. Young deputy never had any issues. We went all the way up to the Florida Supreme Court, because we argued the Stan Your Ground Law,
that he didn’t have any duty to retreat, that Stan Your Ground Law took the castle doctrine, used to not retreat in someone’s home, that he could defend themselves. He actually got– indicted, filed a stand -your -ground motion which allows the case to be dismissed.
It’s like getting another bite at the apple. The trial court, Judge Usana Greed, wrote this great 30 -page order, wasn’t enough for the state. They didn’t just go home. You know, they say the defense never rests here,
the state never rests here. Well, it’s a floodgate situation as far as they see it potentially, right? It was. And we went up in the Fourth District Court of Appeal. I love oral arguments. Sometimes a worthy orange jacket, you know, not your typical…
— >> Depends who’s on the panel. >> It does depend upon who’s the panel. >> You put several in the car and then you’ll wear which one’s appropriate for the panel. >> Figure it out. You know, they say that the C students are the trial lawyers and it’s the A students that are the Pallett lawyers.
I think maybe I’m somewhere in between. >> I was a C student. >> I was a C student. >> I was a C student up until law school, but my wife focused me in. But I digress. I tell you, this ADHD is kicking in. But we went up to the Florida Supreme Court and we argued over the word “person.” Any person is what the statute says can use standing around.
And the state was actually arguing that law enforcement couldn’t use it because they weren’t under the word “person.” So, of course, obviously, the plain meaning of the statute. All the Supreme Court justices went in our favor and we won.
The case was dismissed. And then I had another high -profile case for a law enforcement officer in Broward County. He said, “You can’t use standing around. You can’t use standing around. You can’t use standing around.” it to defend two police officers. And I won on motion and Jeremy won at trial in that case.
So it was an experience as lawyers. We’re always arguing, you know, over words, a person. Who thought I’d be up in front of the Supreme Court arguing that police officers apply as a person,
that they are people, too. I mean, that’s a given. Is that because they probably fell under a separate definition of law enforcement? Well, that’s correct. See, I know I’m talking to, you know, a lawyer. a former lawyer here. There’s a separate statute involving law enforcement officers,
the officers use of force. But the difference there is that statute is an affirmative defense. The stand your ground statute’s an immunity statute, so you can use both. So you can’t use an affirmative defense on the motion to dismiss,
but we used it for immunity to get it dismissed. The state didn’t really understand that argument. We prevailed, and. it was a good day. You know, to me, I represent everyone.
I started representing law enforcement because they would see me in the courtroom and cross -examinations and they came to me in the unions and they said, “Would you represent our members?” And I never thought about that before, but I’ve been doing it.
I absolutely love it. I represent anyone that gets the tagline D, the defendant, in a criminal courtroom. You know, no client is too big, too small, too skinny, too fat. It doesn’t matter their background.
background. Reasonable doubt for reasonable price, but I will go to a courtroom and I will fight all the way. – And as I recall, you started out actually as a public defender in Broward County. – I did. – So you’ve never been on the prosecution side?

• I’ve been appointed to do special prosecutions and have prosecuted individuals and entities that way on occasion, but yeah, my life is in defense,
  but I could easily do both sides. Did you know another, you know, how’s… is the sausage made or how do you make that the secret sauce you have to see both sides so I could easily probably prosecute as well as defend them it’s not a true believer thing to me it’s you have to see both sides you have to understand people and you have to be able to say what’s on this side what’s on that side right take the side
  and run with it right so a great part of being a trial lawyer is yeah they’re like salesmen you know I used to tell people I’m like a salesman I sell cases to juries well it’s true and you would sell defenses to juries so it’s a slightly different product but the of course the thrill of it is you know there’s these people you don’t even know who they’re gonna be and there’s a lot of public speaking a lot of
  technique and obviously you’re at the point we’ve gotten really comfortable at it and good and that’s wonderful so along the way however there’s always these great stories that come about and war stories,
  right? And I know that our listeners love to hear good stories, right? So I want to have a lightning round with you now. So I will and last night full disclosure Eric and I spoke he I said I want your best and funniest stories I need to keep my listeners awake just like when you’re in trial you keep your juries awake But I guess you just have to wear your jacket for that one.
  That’s enough. Yeah so So I’ve come up with five or six of my favorites and here’s how it’s going to work. I’m going to say the name of the story and you tell it briefly. Your amount of many words,
  so let’s keep it brief to about a minute or two per story so we can get through this and get done on time, okay? Do you agree? Okay. Okay, for $500,
  A, the fly in the courtroom in the murder trial. trial. Go. So we are representing a defendant accused of a murder. Michael Gottlieb and I, another great attorney,
  is also a state rep now. And this girl is accused of murder. Now, what do most women do when they see an insect? What do they do to us? They scream,
  they freak out. Yeah. Not that, right? Again, I’m doing a bad imitation. They start, they flip out, they get scared, and I don’t listen. I don’t want to like stereotype, but that’s typically what happens What does she do?
  Well my bad luck is the fly Now wait a minute. This is this is in the courtroom This is the Broward County Courthouse during the trial the middle of a trial jury in the box jury is in the box witness on the witness stand Witness is not on the witness stand But the jury has just been sworn in and we go out of our way to paint our client in a certain light because the facts of this case were horrendous So my
  bad fortune and the client had some issues. There’s an insect. Yes, we’ve got insects in the courtroom sometimes. Other things besides insects, sometimes there are rats in the courthouse too. We’ve got insects in there and it’s flying around and I see that it’s making her go a little crazy.
  So instead of that, she stands up, the jury’s there and she’s like, can I pound on this table here? I don’t want to break this video, and it starts destroying it.
  It kills the fly right in front of the jury. Well, did the deputies run over to restrain her? I don’t remember the deputies running over, but I remember I’m trying to restrain myself in my head. I’m like, oh my god,
  I just spent weeks trying to get the jury to understand her. And she just killed the fly in a murder trap in front of the jury. So I turn over, and I whisper in the ear, well, I guess I– I can’t argue to the jury that you wouldn’t hurt a fly.
  fly now, can I?” And it didn’t faze her, it wasn’t fazed. And was she convicted? No, she wasn’t. We ended up winning the trial. She got convicted of a misdemeanor in the end,
  which we ended up appealing because here the defense never rests and we won the judge couldn’t stand her. But no, so to me, when you get a misdemeanor on a murder charge and then you win it in the 4th District Court of Appeal and that misdemeanor,
  not at all, was a winning… winning strategy and a winning case, so the fly thing didn’t really matter apparently. And it’s great to draw attention from the jury to her and to you, although you’re pretty hard to miss. You think?
  Sometimes. So that’s, I get that, it reminds me of a few episodes ago Fred Haddad told us that sometimes when smoking was allowed in the courtroom, he would take the paper clip and stick it in the cigarette to make the big ash column that the jury would be preoccupied preoccupied with while the government’s key witness happens to be on the witness stand.
  But that’s another episode. Little magic, little distraction. Alright, so moving on to Lightning Round Story B. Client offering mints in a mint box filled with Xanax during the trial. Now I’ve brought,
  for demonstrative purposes, a box of mints. So you keep those things away from me out there because I’ve already been done that right. No, just to tell the story. Go ahead. So, believe it or not. and you wouldn’t believe it but this is the same client so we are in trial and again the facts of this case are crazy I don’t want to identify the client I do not want to get into what the facts but others and murder
  charge so the client had it wasn’t my wife calls them big mints or small mints but I don’t know what’s name a little mint bar kind of like this tic -tacs but I don’t know it was a tin can like this and it had the top and and I had bad breath.
  I’m sorry, I don’t know what happened just at that moment. Little too much information. So I said, “Hey, can I have some of your mints?” And she smiled and said, “Sure.” So I opened the top of the mint, and I grabbed four of them, ’cause they were the little mints,
  even though big mints, and I like mints. I put four in my mouth and swallow ’em down. – But you got a big mouth. – Well, some, I do have a big mouth. – Oh, sorry. – That’s very good. – I didn’t mean it that way. – That’s very good, Russ. I like that. – Sorry, not sorry.
• Lots of ways we can go there. – Go ahead. – So I swallow. the mince Well, the mince we’re not mince. They were Xanax I think they were like I like 80 milligram Xanax according to her and I had to do a cross -examination In a half hour Michael Gottlieb is at the trial with me.
  This is the true story. He’s sitting there. He’s like, oh my god I can’t believe this so I got up there I’ll looped out because my client dosed me in the middle trial or maybe it was my fault by assuming That there would be mince and a minpox.
  You know what I learned? never make an assumption probably a good story to explain you know the criminal law and burdens and reasonable that about assumptions and I took the Xanax and needless to say I was flying I was loopy but I did my cross -examination so let’s let’s talk about this this trial we had to fly we had the Xanax issue we still won so perhaps with the moral this story is a lesson you need insects and
  you need drugs and that is the secret secret sauce. You will win a case that way. Interesting. It’s good to know. Forzaanix would knock me on my butt and put me to sleep. It knocked me, I’m a large man though,
  always battling weight up and down. So for me it was alright. But actually I was not too happy with the client. You know it’s a funny story in jest but wasn’t one of her finest moments,
  one of my finest moments. But like things happening, you know this is a trial lawyer, things happen. You never let them see you sweat. whether you got to deal with that fly when she’s killing the fly Do you think that I’m letting the jury know bothers me poker face when I’m like looped up because my crazy client just dosed me Or I dosed myself thinking they were mints You just you can’t let him see a sweat.
  You got to move on whether you’re sick whether you’ve got a cold the show must go on What about the orange as a deadly weapon in the courtroom? Tell us that story quickly you talked about public defenders when I first jobs in in criminal defense,
  I worked under Al Schreiber. He rest in peace with a colorful character, remember? Al Schreiber. And I was in front of Melanie May later, and she swore me in. She’s now in the Fourth District Court of Appeal, but she was in the juvenile court.
  And the state of Florida charges this child with an aggravated battery and the two -wit clause, which means what was the deadly weapon, an orange, an actual orange,
  that this kid that there he was, took a true an orange off of a tree, and threw it in another kid, and that was a deadly weapon. Kid wasn’t even hurt. But aggravated battery, deadly weapon. So I wasn’t used by that,
  I’m a young lawyer. So I grab an orange and bench trials in juvenile, which means there’s no jury, it’s in front of a judge, and Judge May is very smart. And I grab an orange, and I take the orange,
  and closing argument, I argue that the only fruit in this courtroom is the state of Florida, and I take the orange. put it through my finger like that. And Judge May, you know, she’s so very serious, but she just starts laughing.
  And orange juice is dripping all over. This is not how this jacket got orange, by the way. I was wondering. Maybe that’s why I’m wearing orange. I don’t know. And Judge May is like, Mr. Schwartreich, you’re dripping orange juice on my courtroom floor.
  She just started laughing. And she reduced the charge to a simple misdemeanor battery. So I’ll take that as a win. So the only fruit in this courtroom is the state of Florida. Florida. That’s a bit of a reach to say an orange is a deadly weapon.
  You think? Well, if it’s a big watermelon and it’s heavy and it’s not coming over, perhaps. Here’s another lesson I just learned. Watermelon, deadly weapon, maybe orange is not. This is good. I’m learning a lot today, Russ.
  Never know. A simple battery could be a grape. Who knows? A grape, I don’t know. Sour grape maybe. I know you’ve done DUI cases pretty much all over the state. in DUI manslaughter cases.
  You’ve got a couple of stories mentioned to me about some that you did in remote areas. One of them about pre -trying a DUI manslaughter case in a small town at the Elks Lodge. What’s that about?
  So I believe in putting together a team. So when I try cases, I like to listen to lawyers. I like to be in control. I do believe that there should be a lead chef, but I don’t mind working with other chefs and sous chefs and people around me that are great lawyers.
  lawyers. So, Anthony Bruno and Sheila Zollnore, they’ve worked with me for many years. We have a case up in Glades County, Florida, and, you know,
  in this town there’s a drive -through and you can pull up to the drive -through bar and you can say, “I’ll have a rum and coke or I’ll have a vodka tonic, I don’t know if it’s a copper rum or any rum,” and you can order the rum,
  you can get the drink, and then you can drive off, like, in the town while you’re drinking. and the one sheriff over there probably doesn’t pull anyone over. I was like wow like this is some town so I wanted to like what type of town is this before I go up here because one of my favorite movies hence I’m wearing the orange jacket I’m like they’re not gonna have me up here you know I’m a Jewish guy from New York
  I got this Persian lawyer Sheila’s own or and I got Anthony Bruno Italian guy from Florida I’m like we are not going to play well over here. So we got to understand the people we want to walk in their shoes.
  But what do I say? Well, you know, what is the line from to kill a mockingbird, the book? I mean, you need a paraphrasing, but it’s all about you need to walk in someone’s shoes. So we go up there. We live in trailers.
  I haven’t ever lived in a trailer. I mean, I’ve been camping, but my idea of camping is a Ritz -Cartner room service. So we go up there. Well, of course. So we go up. I do like to camp a little bit.
  though full disclosure so we go up there we we live in trailers and and double -wides and we join the Elk’s Lodge I mean I used to think of like the Flintstones remember the Flintstones yeah the Moose Lodge we join the Elk’s Lodge it was like $30 like we like bang in the door the secret door they let us in we become friends with them I get like a free steak dinner I’m like all right I’m gonna pay the $30 we’re
  having like free steak dinners every night and there was like slight ten people that would go on there we would pre -trial our case to them and they would say okay argue this don’t argue that they would tell us what the judge is like What the judge isn’t like and they’re all related sometimes they probably on this jury a lot of people were related So we went up there and we pre -tried this case.
  We lived there for two weeks I got to know the townspeople everywhere we would drive they would call us by name and You know in this town the prosecutors come I think from Fort Myers. I think it’s Fort Myers. They’re not even from Glendale County so we’re in this trial I’ll never forget the judge the whole time when I got in there he was reading me the rules I’m like just making sure they was going to put me in
  line it really was like my cousin Vinnie and I do a lot of strategy on jury selection of wadier when you pick a jury and like certain strikes that you can use to get rid of or remove jurors so I just passed on all mine and this experienced prosecutor just kept using all of her strikes so here’s a DUI manslaughter trial.
  And she’s left with a police officer from Hollywood, a former police officer that left because he got a DUI. And he thinks the DUI laws are too, like, strong, so he moved out to the Glades County.
  And then a sex offender, a registered sex offender. I didn’t even know, you could have a registered sex offender on a trial and the state was out of strikes. Now, I knew that it was a Hobson’s choice.
  It was a poor choice for this prosecutor. Her and I did not get along too well. But she was stuck. And she’s like, “Judge, I need another strike.” And the judge is like, “Oh, that’s going to be denied.” And he’s kind of like laughing,
  but he’d been on her side the whole time. She goes, “Well, one guy left here is Mr. Schwartreig passed on all of his moves as a sex offender.” And you know, sex offenders are told what to do, where to live,
  they’re not going to have them in the government. Or a police officer with a DUI, and I got a DUI with manslaughter. What do I do? Judges like make a decision. When I turned to her, I’m like, pick your poison. Now,
  she wasn’t too happy. We ended up winning that trial, but during that trial, we got to know the town. We lived up there, we’re trying it in the Elk Slodge. We put on a show. To me, that was the greatest show that came to Glades County for two weeks and my cousin Vinnie approached here.
  I really loved it. And you know what’s crazy about this case? – And what was the verdict? – The verdict. not guilty. This juror, the jurors after they would sometimes the jurors would call you after the trial and like give comments or critiques and one of the jurors they still found not guilty said to me you know your client every day would almost run us off the road he was at a custody he would get out of court
  and I’d be leaving court and he would almost run us off the road and he’d be like run her to the stop sign and like speeding down the road that’s like the flight story. This is a juror? A juror that acquitted this guy and I’m thinking to myself first of all sometimes clients are just crazy because like you would think you wouldn’t go down that road but I’m jaded.
  You do criminal defense work Russell. I see it’s like see no evil here no evil. I see it all it’s like in one ear out the other ear but when I stop and I reflect that here’s this guy on trial and it was a very sad serious case and motorcycle as fiance died.
  and the driving pattern was the allegations were reckless and here he is on trial for his life and he’s almost running the jurors off the road on the way out it I guess nothing ceases to amaze you but as I sit here and I tell that story I look back it’s something else what we do yeah it is especially those small town one sounds like an episode of a TV show so I love visiting road trips the visiting team.
  I like a challenge, right? The more difficult the challenge from a psychological perspective, understanding the lay of the land as a trial lawyer. Because judges make or break a case too, right? All judges,
  demeanors are different. So even though I’m comfortable in South Florida and that’s where I practice, I like a lot. I enjoy a lot when I’m on the road. – Right, how do you feel about saying that a good lawyer knows the law,
  but a great lawyer knows the judge? So I think that it’s a good saying to a certain extent, but I think that a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows not to let the judge mess up his case,
  because a lot of times a judge will get involved or they won’t like the facts or there are some great men and women that are on the bench. All judges are not created equal. I teach, I tell my students this,
  and we’ve got some great judges in the state of Florida and this country. Some of them, though, that they really get involved, I mean a judge is supposed to be a referee. You call balls, you call strikes. When you did your days of being an advocate,
  that was then. But sometimes judges will try to maybe, maybe it’s unintentional, maybe they can’t help themselves. Sometimes I feel like they try and tip the scales. So while I have great relationships with some judges,
  not with some others, to me I believe that a great lawyer, a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows not to let a judge. mess up his case and let the judge be respectful.
  You know, it’s his or her courtroom. Let them know that they feel that they’re in control. But you know who really should control the courtroom as a trial lawyer? The lawyers. It is the animals, the lawyers,
  not the zookeeper that really, to me, an effective trial lawyers that really make a dent in a court. >> Yeah. I think another differentiator between a good lawyer and a great lawyer is the great lawyer knows the law a hell of a lot better than the– good lawyer because it’s no secret that even within particular practice areas some guys are just fast and loose and they just reel off names of cases but they don’t
  really know what the law is and the other side if they’re more prepared will often have the case law that they need that was always my experience on the civil side it’s like that come on you can’t be an empty suit and when I say the defense never rest I won’t sleep I mean there’s reason like a bags under my eyes and I need to color my hair more often than I normally do is because I’m just constantly like going
  at it and I will outwork them I will remember the movie Bruce Willis the sixth sense I see dead I see dead people to me I want to be like I think like I see dead people I want to work hard enough where I see the thing the fact the runaway train that the opposing counsel doesn’t see and you can’t go there an empty suit know the key law know the research and that has a lot to do with it – you just can’t show
  up and say here I am here’s my orange jacket you got to outwork them you have to outsmart them and you have to be honest and you have to be true to yourself and true to your client because we take on causes and positions of people that like most jurors will they just hear the facts so like well you know he must have done something to know there’s smoke there’s fire this person is in this courtroom sitting next to
  this flamboyant peacock if you will and I’m not always flamboyantly dressed, but it’s yeah, you are you gotta out you Well, I see on Facebook a lot, you know, well listen,
  that’s you know people always say to me You know everything looks so perfect and I love that people see what I put out there control my image I mean, I don’t put on Facebook. Oh, you still get the hard copy Sun Sentinel get out of the toilet used to read the Sun Sentinel in the morning too much information I know but people People like I post pictures of puppies my family music concerts They see what I control or
  what I put out there. So you don’t see me when I’m like Dressed right you never get a second chance to make a first impression and you make quite a first impression And by the way, it is not an empty suit by any means so Eric I was thinking,
  you know, you’re one of those guys who over the years I’d say hey let’s do lunch sometime yeah we never did lunch and you know I figured that by getting you here on the podcast I would spend more time with you than I’ve ever spent and I have accomplished that.
  Are you getting a little freaked out right now? No not at all. Breaking out of the sweat? On the contrary this being a special occasion I’d like to propose a toast.
  We are toasting to life and we are toasting toasting to even though we have stressful things that happen in our life and bad things that happen great things that happen and to Sucking the marrow out of life to seizing the day to enjoying you’re here here here.
  Thank you for having me We’re gonna wrap the episode sky when you get out of law school. We’d love to have you here Maybe we’ll do a panel. I’m always looking for interesting guests and I really enjoy doing the podcast and meeting and interviewing people who I really think are special and especially interesting.
  And you fit that bill in many ways, so I really appreciate your coming and hope you can come back in the future. I thank you for having me, and I’ve really enjoyed this. Thank you, Russ. And that concludes today’s episode of the Interesting Lawyers Podcast.
  This is Russ Adler from LawyerBusiness .com. .com, and that’s my website if you’d like some more information. We’ll see you next time. Thanks.